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The "Sinfest Did A Regressive Feminism" thread
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Professor_Frink



Joined: 21 Oct 2014
Posts: 690

PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2018 8:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nobody Important wrote:


Yeah Contra's awesome.


More importantly YOUR AVATAR IS ADORABLE. Now I want to put one of those Aggretsuko animals as my avatar. Would I be a shameless copy cat if I did that?
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Nobody Important



Joined: 18 Jan 2016
Posts: 762

PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2018 9:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Professor_Frink wrote:
Nobody Important wrote:


Yeah Contra's awesome.


More importantly YOUR AVATAR IS ADORABLE. Now I want to put one of those Aggretsuko animals as my avatar. Would I be a shameless copy cat if I did that?


Maybe, but I wouldn't be opposed to seeing more Retsuko avatars around here~
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Sam



Joined: 09 Jul 2006
Posts: 11324

PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2018 9:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

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Professor_Frink



Joined: 21 Oct 2014
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PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2018 9:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sam that drawing is the best thing to ever happen to the world of art.
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Professor_Frink



Joined: 21 Oct 2014
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PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2018 9:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well now my profile picture is a tiny hatoful boyfriend pigeon. The best laid plans of mice and men...
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Nobody Important



Joined: 18 Jan 2016
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PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2018 10:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I saw that pic on the Aggretsuko subreddit yesterday. And yeah, it's one of the best pieces of fanart I've ever seen.
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cleocatra



Joined: 30 Mar 2007
Posts: 268
Location: Cave

PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2018 5:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Professor_Frink wrote:
Well now my profile picture is a tiny hatoful boyfriend pigeon. The best laid plans of mice and men...
Okosan!

I have him as my facebook profile pic after someone was stalking me lol
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Zilla



Joined: 08 Jun 2016
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PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2018 4:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So i keep circling back on the SWERF arguments... and im trying to really understand where Sinfest is, and what it's flaws are. So far, I'm at the point of thinking, the main problem is the narrative doesn't have any room for legitimate sex trade. The existence of such threatens and counters the message of the strip, as it seems to cast any narrative about using sex as a positive transaction as propaganda.

But... what's the fallout there? Here's where I'm at with that: Continuing to stigmatize the profession as inherently corrupt is going to limit the pool of clients to a more unsavory sort, becoming a force for a self-fulfilling prophecy. Is that it?
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Taemon



Joined: 08 Aug 2013
Posts: 2129
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PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2018 10:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think it's a matter of agency. If people want to sell sex, let them be free to do it.
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Vixine



Joined: 12 Jan 2016
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PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2018 11:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Basically, if someone wants to have sex and voluntarily chooses to make money that way, they should be free to do so without having to fear for their safety or puritanical judgement, regardless of their gender. If they don't want to, they shouldn't have to, and they should always be able to protect themselves from dangerous clients. SWERFs believe that these concepts are for some reason incompatible/impossible, whether they have the SCUMMy view that all sex is inherently violence against women because of baffling moon logic, they're unable to believe anyone could ever choose to do such a thing and therefore they must all be brainwashed/kidnapped/victimized, etc.
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Leohan



Joined: 26 Mar 2007
Posts: 1844

PostPosted: Thu May 17, 2018 4:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Zilla wrote:
So i keep circling back on the SWERF arguments... and im trying to really understand where Sinfest is, and what it's flaws are. So far, I'm at the point of thinking, the main problem is the narrative doesn't have any room for legitimate sex trade. The existence of such threatens and counters the message of the strip, as it seems to cast any narrative about using sex as a positive transaction as propaganda.

But... what's the fallout there? Here's where I'm at with that: Continuing to stigmatize the profession as inherently corrupt is going to limit the pool of clients to a more unsavory sort, becoming a force for a self-fulfilling prophecy. Is that it?

Well, the Nordic model hangs on to this other piece of propaganda that Tatsuya threw out: "100% of Johns are creeps."

It's... Really fucking condescending. I mean, I kept circling about the ethical meaning behind "Prostitutes are not criminals but clients are" and... Well, I figured something out and it really skeeved me.

Will go into SWERFy mode for a second to illustrate:

Of course clients are criminals. Prostitutes are the victims of any transaction involving sexual services. There's no way that a woman (let's be honest, SWERFs don't think about male prostitutes) could ever, off their own volition, decide to participate in a transaction in which she provides sexual favors in exchanged or money. She must have been coerced, or enslaved, or confused, but in any case she is doing a bad thing. And the clients? They know it. Even if they pay the agreed amount, even if the prostitute has no problems with their behaviour, they are taking advantage of a poor woman that doesn't deserve to do what she is doing.

They have to go to prison. They are criminals and they perpetuate prostitution by hiring the services or poor girls that are either there against their own volition or don't know the nature of what they are doing. Removing the client base might look like destroying prostitution as a job because that's exactly the objective, these women will find something better, for sure. Anything except prostitution.

End of SWERFiness before I vomit.


You see, with this line of thought, willingly being a prostitute is treated akin to having a mental disability. Can't help what you are doing and meanwhile there are men taking advantage of poor you and they need to be stopped because they are creeps. That's the only explanation I can see for "Prostitutes are always victims."

My god. Feeling sick out of figuring out this shit isn't how I actually wanted to start my day.
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Sam



Joined: 09 Jul 2006
Posts: 11324

PostPosted: Thu May 17, 2018 6:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

it's like a combo factor, at least according to the sex workers i know

factor 1: if you follow the theory up from the axiomatic beginnings, it can feel oh-so-righteous to be helping save those poor sex workers from themselves, even if they might not know better right then. they can be forgiven for not understanding that they're upholding the pillars of patriarchy or whatever, but in time we'll solve their silly little problems and set them straight in their widdle heads

the righteousness is a problem mostly because the proposed solutions of anti sex workers — whether we're talking from regressive feminists or from more orthodox moralists like religious communities — make them less safe. see: sesta/fosta being a clusterfuck. these white knights is no bueno

factor 2: sometimes it's just about a supposed feminist / feminist group just having a straight up hate-on for men or assigned male at birth bodies, so much so that they are automatically repulsed by the idea of consensual relations with men and psychologically find it difficult to even understand certain relations as consensual if they involve men and MUST isolate them as patriarchal victimization in action. see: cathy brennan and other brennanites

either way it's always just a fistful of complete fuckedness. these communities are weird and bad. watching them in action is always ... uh, well, it's always something. it's like a bizarro mirror of altie groups but with less pepes
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Sam



Joined: 09 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Thu May 17, 2018 6:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

that's just a SW take though at least. i really can't say i know anyone who's openly john as a solo male? the only people i've talked to about hiring sex work are women, usually hiring on a unicorn for a sex weekend or something
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Zilla



Joined: 08 Jun 2016
Posts: 47

PostPosted: Thu May 17, 2018 8:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think the problem in communication between sides on this is that I feel those responses overlook the people who are forced into prostitution, either through violence or economics, and that compared to the people with agency and their issues, there's a complete difference in scale of problem. So the SWERFs feel like it's starving a nation to add sprinkles to a wedding cake in Seattle.

So if we are going to have a dialogue about sex workers and we want to address things rationally, it has to at least address that segment of the population, and center their needs for safety and agency.

Is that fair?
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Leohan



Joined: 26 Mar 2007
Posts: 1844

PostPosted: Thu May 17, 2018 9:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Zilla wrote:
I think the problem in communication between sides on this is that I feel those responses overlook the people who are forced into prostitution, either through violence or economics, and that compared to the people with agency and their issues, there's a complete difference in scale of problem. So the SWERFs feel like it's starving a nation to add sprinkles to a wedding cake in Seattle.

So if we are going to have a dialogue about sex workers and we want to address things rationally, it has to at least address that segment of the population, and center their needs for safety and agency.

Is that fair?

It is, and don't get it twisted. The main purpose of legalizing prostitution is to protect the sex workers and to decrease human trafficking.

Whatever one's thoughts are about it, it's undeniable that there is a market for sex work. As things are now, without any form of regulation and with a high existing demand, black markets flourish because they don't have competition. America has a history of this: The Cosa Nostra became powerful because of the Dry Law removing the legal means to get alcohol. Once the law was removed, mafias became obsolete and the business provided more of a liability than it did income. The same applies to pimping. The worst possible outcome for a pimp would be for prostitutes to be able to exercise their profession while his own business remains illegal.


Last edited by Leohan on Sat May 19, 2018 6:29 am; edited 1 time in total
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