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January 25, 2018: Pimpbot Order 4
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Tyger42



Joined: 16 Jul 2009
Posts: 38
Location: Memphis, TN

PostPosted: Tue Jan 30, 2018 7:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

TinT wrote:
Tyger42 wrote:
Well, by strict definition, it is absolutely exploitation. In the same way that hiring a carpenter to build a deck is exploiting the carpenter. The question is when is it wrong? I say when you take advantage of a service being willingly offered and provide the agreed upon compensation, there's nothing wrong with it. Whether that service is carpentry, sex, or naked butt wiggling.


Carpenters aren't a systematically oppressed class, and carpenters aren't under the omnipresent threat of "well, you can say no, but you're building my deck one way or the other". For women and girls, especially those in more vulnerable situations, there's always the implication.


You could use the same hyperbolic arguments to vilify hiring black people for any manual labor by pointing to slavery.

Try to double talk it with all the buzzwords and fear mongering you want, the truth of the matter is you think you have the right to tell someone else what they can do with their bodies because you don't approve of their choice. You're no better than a pimp.
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TinT



Joined: 20 Aug 2014
Posts: 70

PostPosted: Tue Jan 30, 2018 8:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I will gladly and proudly tell men that they do not have the right to use their body to perpetuate the objectification, abuse, and oppression of women and girls. No wishy washy "don't approve of their choice" either; anyone who choses to exploit a prostituted person belongs in jail.
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d5xtgr



Joined: 06 Mar 2013
Posts: 101

PostPosted: Tue Jan 30, 2018 8:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

TinT wrote:
Based on the above, I'm not sure how far apart our views really are.

I'll try to give a concise summary of my views on what should be legal, then.

  1. Performing sex in exchange for money, or offering to do so, should be legal.
  2. Paying someone else to perform sex, or offering* to do so, should be legal.
  3. Arranging clients for a prostitute as a dispatcher arranges clients for a cabbie, or entering into an agreement to do so, should be legal.
  4. Assaulting or confining a prostitute, depriving her of her property, committing any other crime against her, or threatening to do so, should be illegal.

*albeit repeated or inappropriate offers may constitute harassment

Points A and B follow from the observation that it isn't intrinsically any of my business, or yours, whether two people engage in sex because they feel obliged to "be fruitful and multiply", because they find each other attractive, or because one is paying the other. I take the position I do on point C because I see no meaningful distinction from the cabbie-dispatcher relationship - but I'm open to changing this if you can show how the fact that a prostitute provides a sexual service, while a cabbie provides a functional service, alters the ethical balance. And point D is basically a tautology in that crimes should be illegal.

I'm guessing I agree with you on points A and D, but not B and C.
TinT wrote:
But legalizing the role of the exploiters doesn't help. It turns it into a mass market, increasing abuse and trafficking as the worst elements have more places to hide and legitimate-looking fronts to put up.

But plenty of industries have this problem. To echo a couple other posters, we don't ban janitorial companies because some abuse and traffic their cleaning personnel. Nor is textile manufacturing banned because it gives cover to sweatshops.
TinT wrote:
It tells society that yes, some women are in fact commodities, available for disposable use to satisfy male desire and domination. And if any woman is an object, all women are objects.

You need to better justify these statements. Especially the second one - slavery is a great example of women being objects - not just in an interpersonal-dynamic sense, but under the law - and yet Kentucky was one of the earliest US states to extend (property-owning) women the vote in 1838, although it retained slavery all the way up until the enactment of the 13th Amendment in 1865.
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Taemon



Joined: 08 Aug 2013
Posts: 2156
Location: Europe

PostPosted: Wed Jan 31, 2018 5:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

d5xtgr wrote:
mouse wrote:
sadly, most american conservatives (despite their support of free-market capitalism) seem to completely fail to understand the connection between supply and demand, and continue to believe that they can stop things they don't like (sex, abortion, drug use, immigration, etc., etc.) by punishing it.


Would you say that the same reasoning applies to liberal efforts to stop gun violence with zero-tolerance gun-free zones?

Works just fine in the rest of the world.
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Taemon



Joined: 08 Aug 2013
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 31, 2018 5:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hey TinT, what about male sex workers?
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d5xtgr



Joined: 06 Mar 2013
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 31, 2018 9:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Taemon wrote:
d5xtgr wrote:
Would you say that the same reasoning applies to liberal efforts to stop gun violence with zero-tolerance gun-free zones?

Works just fine in the rest of the world.


I mean, except for Mexico (guns not allowed to be carried outside the home), Venezuela (civilian ownership of guns forbidden), or any of dozens of other countries, you might have a point.
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Taemon



Joined: 08 Aug 2013
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 31, 2018 1:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

d5xtgr wrote:
Taemon wrote:
d5xtgr wrote:
Would you say that the same reasoning applies to liberal efforts to stop gun violence with zero-tolerance gun-free zones?

Works just fine in the rest of the world.


I mean, except for Mexico (guns not allowed to be carried outside the home), Venezuela (civilian ownership of guns forbidden), or any of dozens of other countries, you might have a point.

Okay. Works out fine in Europe. Most of Asia. Most of Africa. Canada. And Australia. So, I guess, works out fine in almost the rest of the world.

Of course, Mexico and Venezuela have much bigger problems than the USA, but I guess it won't be long before the USA close that gap.
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mouse



Joined: 10 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 31, 2018 1:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

it also used to work just fine in the US, and still does in some states, although we may not be long for that. hopefully states like mine have collected, and will collect, enough data to demonstrate that allowing pretty much anyone to carry pretty much any gun pretty much anywhere does indeed lead to an increase in gun violence.

also d5xtgr, i like the way you ignored my dog analogy. but i think Leohan covered it pretty well.
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Leohan



Joined: 26 Mar 2007
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 31, 2018 4:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Taemon wrote:
Of course, Mexico and Venezuela have much bigger problems than the USA, but I guess it won't be long before the USA close that gap.

...I dunno if you are aware of just how bad things are in Venezuela.

Broken countries: Brought to you by the influence of Argentinian populism.
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Tyger42



Joined: 16 Jul 2009
Posts: 38
Location: Memphis, TN

PostPosted: Wed Jan 31, 2018 7:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

TinT wrote:
I will gladly and proudly tell men that they do not have the right to use their body to perpetuate the objectification, abuse, and oppression of women and girls. No wishy washy "don't approve of their choice" either; anyone who choses to exploit a prostituted person belongs in jail.


Obvious attempt at spin doctoring is obvious. I meant the women choosing to work in sex services and you fucking well knew it. This blatantly dishonest ploy you just pulled tells me you're not worth arguing with, though. Good day, troll.
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Sam



Joined: 09 Jul 2006
Posts: 11332

PostPosted: Wed Jan 31, 2018 9:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Leohan wrote:

...I dunno if you are aware of just how bad things are in Venezuela.


most americans arent. which is interesting, because it's like venezuela has found the most paralyzingly consistent, graduated way to decline without getting a whole lot of national attention.

but it's ... yeah, it's pretty turbofucked over there
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Taemon



Joined: 08 Aug 2013
Posts: 2156
Location: Europe

PostPosted: Thu Feb 01, 2018 12:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Leohan wrote:
Taemon wrote:
Of course, Mexico and Venezuela have much bigger problems than the USA, but I guess it won't be long before the USA close that gap.

...I dunno if you are aware of just how bad things are in Venezuela.

Broken countries: Brought to you by the influence of Argentinian populism.

It's what happens if malevolence is not tempered by incompetence.
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Last edited by Taemon on Thu Feb 01, 2018 11:49 pm; edited 1 time in total
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TinT



Joined: 20 Aug 2014
Posts: 70

PostPosted: Thu Feb 01, 2018 7:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tyger42 wrote:
TinT wrote:
I will gladly and proudly tell men that they do not have the right to use their body to perpetuate the objectification, abuse, and oppression of women and girls. No wishy washy "don't approve of their choice" either; anyone who choses to exploit a prostituted person belongs in jail.


Obvious attempt at spin doctoring is obvious. I meant the women choosing to work in sex services and you fucking well knew it. This blatantly dishonest ploy you just pulled tells me you're not worth arguing with, though. Good day, troll.


All exploitation of prostituted people is abuse and oppression, even if the prostituted person "chose" (dire economic situation, agreed to demands of an abusive partner, drug addiction, mental health crisis, family crisis, etc.) to go that route.

Fundamentally, do people think the goals of feminism are likely to be easy to achieve, or difficult? Do you think men, in general as a privileged class, are more likely to approve of feminist goals, or disapprove? Or if you want to be more charitable, do you think men and women in general are more likely to be pressured by patriarchal power structures to approve of feminist goals, or disapprove?

So, we have this hypothetical world where prostitution is fully legalized. Men have an explicit, government sanctioned right to rent women's bodies. We know, from every example today of places that have gone the full legalization route, that this increases the amount of trafficking and abuse of women and girls, but we've decided that's an acceptable trade-off for men to have at-will access to women's bodies. Society has made pornography not just legal, to consume and commercially produce in all jurisdictions, but a celebrated art form in this sex-positive community. Sure, it's still utterly dominated by performance for the male gaze, a gaze that as with any addiction seeks ever more hardcore and degrading acts against women. We encourage people to watch it, normalize it, don't kink shame, and hand more ammunition to anyone trying to pressure a woman or girl into incorporating those acts into their real sex life. The continuing rise in the cases of young women with prolapsed anuses and other signs of physical and mental abuse are just another of those things we're going to live with. And of course, women and girls will have a harder time talking about sexual abuse and pain and how it fits into a continued oppression of women, because society punishes them for talking about their anatomy in relation to femaleness--"not all women have vaginas you bigot". And speaking of bigots, we'll also ostracize any lesbians who refuse to consider as a sexual partner a person who has or had a penis. And we'll make sure that any space women want will be accessible by the male privileged and male bodied, on penalty of hate crime charges, in case women think about getting together and getting uppity.

And no, this somehow isn't the total dudebro patriarchal fantasy world, this is third-wave utopia.
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Taemon



Joined: 08 Aug 2013
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 01, 2018 11:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hey, what about male sex workers?
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Chronometry



Joined: 02 Mar 2016
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 02, 2018 3:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Taemon wrote:
Hey, what about male sex workers?


Yes, what about male sex workers?
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