So, what should I expect?

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TTBomb
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Re: We have our answer

Post by TTBomb » Wed Jul 11, 2018 11:30 am

Z6IIAB wrote:
Allison wrote: If someone really wants to discuss this with me, please take it to PM.
I never did, tbh. But I won't let anyone push me or any other woman here. This is a place for people that actually enjoy Sinfest, the way it has become, for anti-prostitution and anti-pornography feminists to converse and, in Tat's words "favor the radical feminist perspective over a liberal or conservative one".

I don't know why any of our opposition even bothers coming here to call us "TERFs", especially when that's a non-issue to us and to feminism.

Please, keep ranting about how the world is unfair to (non)dysphoric males, that kind of defy sexist roles and stereotypes but often assume the ones imposed on the female sex, anywhere else.

It's literally all *I* ask.

Thank you.
I am going to ask you a very simple question and I do not want an essay in response. Just a yes or a no.

Q: Are Transwomen women?

This will clarify for everyone who seem to be passive-aggressively circling eachother what kind of a space this is supposed to be.

I will reiterate: I do not want an essay from you. I want a simple YES or NO. I understand the logical arguments behind both answers and I'm not interested in hearing those; I'm interested in hearing the conclusion. I need you to understand this. If you're afraid to answer one or the other definitively, you should probably ask yourself why.

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October
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Post by October » Wed Jul 11, 2018 3:12 pm

If you're looking for a final say from Tat, you may want to PM/email him. Otherwise, this being a forum, there's nobody who could answer for everyone; you're likely to get different answers from different people.

Edited to remove the irrelevant.
Last edited by October on Thu Jul 12, 2018 11:45 am, edited 1 time in total.
"Because as we all know... there is nothing stronger than a broken woman who has rebuilt herself!" -Hannah Gadsby

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Z6IIAB
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Re: We have our answer

Post by Z6IIAB » Wed Jul 11, 2018 3:41 pm

TTBomb wrote:
Z6IIAB wrote:
Allison wrote: If someone really wants to discuss this with me, please take it to PM.
I never did, tbh. But I won't let anyone push me or any other woman here. This is a place for people that actually enjoy Sinfest, the way it has become, for anti-prostitution and anti-pornography feminists to converse and, in Tat's words "favor the radical feminist perspective over a liberal or conservative one".

I don't know why any of our opposition even bothers coming here to call us "TERFs", especially when that's a non-issue to us and to feminism.

Please, keep ranting about how the world is unfair to (non)dysphoric males, that kind of defy sexist roles and stereotypes but often assume the ones imposed on the female sex, anywhere else.

It's literally all *I* ask.

Thank you.
I am going to ask you a very simple question and I do not want an essay in response. Just a yes or a no.

Q: Are Transwomen women?

This will clarify for everyone who seem to be passive-aggressively circling eachother what kind of a space this is supposed to be.

I will reiterate: I do not want an essay from you. I want a simple YES or NO. I understand the logical arguments behind both answers and I'm not interested in hearing those; I'm interested in hearing the conclusion. I need you to understand this. If you're afraid to answer one or the other definitively, you should probably ask yourself why.

Hah. "I want this I want that". Mofo, gtfo with your orders, I obey no one. Plus, I have a question for all the crying widows of the old Sinfest-when-it-was-good that, yeah, keep passive-aggressively coming here to bother people that aren't even on the old forum anymore: What IS a woman?

Think about that.
Call me Celina. I've been a fan since 2007, and tried to enjoy the old forum since then too. Now that we have a forum for radfems/people who actually enjoy the comic! Hell yes! I'll call up all my buddies here!! Armageddon is coming.

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Z6IIAB
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Post by Z6IIAB » Wed Jul 11, 2018 3:44 pm

We should call this thread "The Message", cause that's how I've been feeling with all those vibes... don't push us.
Call me Celina. I've been a fan since 2007, and tried to enjoy the old forum since then too. Now that we have a forum for radfems/people who actually enjoy the comic! Hell yes! I'll call up all my buddies here!! Armageddon is coming.

TTBomb
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Re: We have our answer

Post by TTBomb » Wed Jul 11, 2018 4:16 pm

Z6IIAB wrote:
TTBomb wrote:
Z6IIAB wrote:
Allison wrote: If someone really wants to discuss this with me, please take it to PM.
I never did, tbh. But I won't let anyone push me or any other woman here. This is a place for people that actually enjoy Sinfest, the way it has become, for anti-prostitution and anti-pornography feminists to converse and, in Tat's words "favor the radical feminist perspective over a liberal or conservative one".

I don't know why any of our opposition even bothers coming here to call us "TERFs", especially when that's a non-issue to us and to feminism.

Please, keep ranting about how the world is unfair to (non)dysphoric males, that kind of defy sexist roles and stereotypes but often assume the ones imposed on the female sex, anywhere else.

It's literally all *I* ask.

Thank you.
I am going to ask you a very simple question and I do not want an essay in response. Just a yes or a no.

Q: Are Transwomen women?

This will clarify for everyone who seem to be passive-aggressively circling eachother what kind of a space this is supposed to be.

I will reiterate: I do not want an essay from you. I want a simple YES or NO. I understand the logical arguments behind both answers and I'm not interested in hearing those; I'm interested in hearing the conclusion. I need you to understand this. If you're afraid to answer one or the other definitively, you should probably ask yourself why.

Hah. "I want this I want that". Mofo, gtfo with your orders, I obey no one. Plus, I have a question for all the crying widows of the old Sinfest-when-it-was-good that, yeah, keep passive-aggressively coming here to bother people that aren't even on the old forum anymore: What IS a woman?

Think about that.
So your answer is no, thanks for playing. It's illustrative that you won't give a straight answer.

So transpeople (whom I am not among the number of) who were wondering the kind of people this place is made for- you have your answer: You're not women here.

Peace Out ya'll. Tatsuya: regardless of your own personal beliefs, you're still an extremely talented artist and I wish you success.

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Z6IIAB
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Re: We have our answer

Post by Z6IIAB » Wed Jul 11, 2018 4:31 pm

TTBomb wrote:
Z6IIAB wrote:
TTBomb wrote:
Z6IIAB wrote:
Allison wrote: If someone really wants to discuss this with me, please take it to PM.
I never did, tbh. But I won't let anyone push me or any other woman here. This is a place for people that actually enjoy Sinfest, the way it has become, for anti-prostitution and anti-pornography feminists to converse and, in Tat's words "favor the radical feminist perspective over a liberal or conservative one".

I don't know why any of our opposition even bothers coming here to call us "TERFs", especially when that's a non-issue to us and to feminism.

Please, keep ranting about how the world is unfair to (non)dysphoric males, that kind of defy sexist roles and stereotypes but often assume the ones imposed on the female sex, anywhere else.

It's literally all *I* ask.

Thank you.
I am going to ask you a very simple question and I do not want an essay in response. Just a yes or a no.

Q: Are Transwomen women?

This will clarify for everyone who seem to be passive-aggressively circling eachother what kind of a space this is supposed to be.

I will reiterate: I do not want an essay from you. I want a simple YES or NO. I understand the logical arguments behind both answers and I'm not interested in hearing those; I'm interested in hearing the conclusion. I need you to understand this. If you're afraid to answer one or the other definitively, you should probably ask yourself why.

Hah. "I want this I want that". Mofo, gtfo with your orders, I obey no one. Plus, I have a question for all the crying widows of the old Sinfest-when-it-was-good that, yeah, keep passive-aggressively coming here to bother people that aren't even on the old forum anymore: What IS a woman?

Think about that.
So your answer is no, thanks for playing. It's illustrative that you won't give a straight answer.

So transpeople (whom I am not among the number of) who were wondering the kind of people this place is made for- you have your answer: You're not women here.

Peace Out ya'll. Tatsuya: regardless of your own personal beliefs, you're still an extremely talented artist and I wish you success.
Image
Call me Celina. I've been a fan since 2007, and tried to enjoy the old forum since then too. Now that we have a forum for radfems/people who actually enjoy the comic! Hell yes! I'll call up all my buddies here!! Armageddon is coming.

Lizal
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Post by Lizal » Wed Jul 11, 2018 7:05 pm

Of course trans women are welcome. They are people who identify and present as female, who suffer the same (often, more) sexism and discrimination, and who can clearly see just how real the patriarchy is. It affects them differently in some cases, but we are all fighting to dismantle the system of oppression. We all have each other's backs, even if not every issue affects every one of us.

Let's fight for women's bodily autonomy, together. Let's fight for transition resources together. Let's dismantle the oppressive system that holds women back, denies promotions, silences us, tells us to stop standing up for ourselves. We are there for our sisters. Patriarchy is the enemy.

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Tatsuya Ishida
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Post by Tatsuya Ishida » Wed Jul 11, 2018 7:10 pm

Lizal wrote:Of course trans women are welcome. They are people who identify and present as female, who suffer the same (often, more) sexism and discrimination, and who can clearly see just how real the patriarchy is. It affects them differently in some cases, but we are all fighting to dismantle the system of oppression. We all have each other's backs, even if not every issue affects every one of us.

Let's fight for women's bodily autonomy, together. Let's fight for transition resources together. Let's dismantle the oppressive system that holds women back, denies promotions, silences us, tells us to stop standing up for ourselves. We are there for our sisters. Patriarchy is the enemy.
You are Zilla from the other forum.

You are pro-prostitution and pro-pornography.

Please go to the other forum.

Thanks.

Lizal
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Post by Lizal » Wed Jul 11, 2018 7:19 pm

Sir.

All due respect, I am not pro-prostitution or porn. There are inherently exploitative elements that run rampant through society and they need to be eradicated. I don't want trafficking. I don't want exploitation. I don't want women to suffer in a system that silences them. I want to fix this and I am doing what I can to uplift women's voices.

You could be a powerful ally, or you can try to be a wedge to divide our community. Right now, you are hurting your own goals. You're better than this. If not, I am better you, and I'll be sad to leave you behind.

Punch up. Never down.

Solidarity, sisters.

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Tatsuya Ishida
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Post by Tatsuya Ishida » Wed Jul 11, 2018 7:32 pm

Zilla wrote:So i keep circling back on the SWERF arguments... and im trying to really understand where Sinfest is, and what it's flaws are. So far, I'm at the point of thinking, the main problem is the narrative doesn't have any room for legitimate sex trade. The existence of such threatens and counters the message of the strip, as it seems to cast any narrative about using sex as a positive transaction as propaganda.
You believe in a "legitimate sex trade."
Zilla wrote:You shouldn't have to. It's hate speech and most of the arguments aren't original. I really don't think there's anything of value to be gained by even acknowledging or arguing with TERFs. It's a toxic ideology that's already pretty heavily discredited.
Please go to the other forum.

Junebug
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Post by Junebug » Thu Jul 12, 2018 7:49 am

BlueUnicorn wrote:My point of view is definitely radical: NO WOMAN DESERVES THE ABUSE
While from another thread. I wholeheartedly agree with this statement. However, your rhetoric in this thread includes literal segregation of women, which anyone aware of the US's racist history knows to be abusive.
Z6IIAB wrote:keep ranting about how the world is unfair to (non)dysphoric males
TinT wrote:loud and violent TRA strain
This is a very negative light to spin on people asking to not be abused.
trans-identifying male
Wrong. They are not male. They are a woman.
sloganeering like "trans women are women
This. This is appalling, unabashed misogyny. You are denying women their identities. Their gender. You are contributing to a culture that encourages real violence to actual women, and portraying people asking for simple respect as exceedingly violent. To abuse women like this, and to follow this up with gaslighting with the claim that you're not doing anything wrong, is the antithesis of what feminism is about.
When this kind of transphobic language is used without negative consequence, it sends a message that it'll continue, which makes trans people decidedly NOT feel welcome; as Allison has correctly identified. There's no distortion of words necessary.

EDIT: I mean, I guess trans people are allowed and welcome, so long as they accept being misgendered (and other forms of abuse) and treated as lesser because they weren't born cis.

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Lovecat
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Post by Lovecat » Fri Jul 13, 2018 9:54 am

Junebug wrote:
TinT wrote:loud and violent TRA strain
This is a very negative light to spin on people asking to not be abused.
Are you aware of the abuse, both verbal and physical, that TRAs routinely dish out to feminists? While claiming victimisation? The classic abuser tactic 'she made me do it' :roll:

It's not spin, it's reportage. Maria MacLachlan, a 60 yr old grandmother, was assaulted in the UK because a bunch of TRAs had come to Speaker's Corner with the stated intention of 'fucking up some terfs' and her male-bodied attacker had the gall to claim provocation. To add insult to injury the judge in the case reduced the sentence her attacker received because Maria refused to go against her conscience and lie by referring to a hulking great bloke with no intention of GRS who'd slapped on a bit of lippy that morning as 'she' in court.

I have nothing against transwomen, or transmen. Everyone should be free to live as they please. But TRAs are male through and through in their actions and their motivations. They act more like Incels and MRAs than women.

The people assaulting and murdering transwomen are MALE. This is a problem of MALE VIOLENCE. And not they're hardly the sort of men that Radfems have any influence over either... Address male violence rather than women defending their spaces and legal protections, why don't you? Or is it easier to bash women?

Oh, and Cis is a very insulting term. No woman 100% 'identifies' with her socially-imposed gender stereotypes.

patches
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been listening

Post by patches » Tue Aug 07, 2018 11:52 pm

hi all,
I'm patches. I'm trans, my pronouns are that/tranny :evil: So I've been listening since the first page of this discussion. I would like to say a few words, that will be easy to overlook due to my presentation (that doesn't sound familiar at all)

I hear you talk a lot about sexworkers. How many sexworkers do you personally know Tat and friends?

I know more than a few, being that I live in the hood where they work. In fact, they have had the pleasure of using my laundry machines as well as my shower. I also help them look for other work.

What actual work have you done in the real world? You know with real sexworkers.
do you have a right to talk for them? now I am a fan of the Nordic model, I'm just saying what rights do you have to speak.

What I seem to be noticing here is this thing called privilege.

Cis women have a pay gap. That sux I support equal pay.

What I have is no job, since i came out. I have to fix up lawnmowers I find in the alley and sell them on craigslist. I do that while raising 4 kids (3 of which are home-schooled) one of which is biologically mine.

The courts stole my kid due to "lifestyle" but they can't name the "lifestyle" or in their own words find anything wrong with my house or relationship with my son in fact it would be to his detriment to not have a relationship with his father but it's my "lifestyle" they don't know about. so they took over half of my custody and i won him back 4 years later while raising 3 kids that are mine but not biologically. (did i mention that we won the MN Parents day award from the governor)

I've been RAPED, BEAT,and been the victim of POLICE BRUTALITY on multiple occasions. so what i'm trying to say is all the shit talking you all do can jump in the back of the bus. oh and i cant find a bathroom anywhere :( are you hearing that?

Every time I leave the hood I get shit from every direction, but in the hood I'm a saint. here I have been working for indigent rights disability rights, poverty community engagement, so that people of color have a voice when money comes into the neighborhood. I am the reason that when you go to the mncourt.gov websites that they say their paperwork in not ada compliant. Did i mention i don't get payed for any of this.

I think the point i'm trying to get at is that maybe you should get off your pampered ass and DO SOMETHING instead of ripping people with the HIGHEST SUICIDE RATE a new one on the interweb cause what you all are doing is arguing about trivial shit. because i'm broke,i'm tired, and all i hear is this kind of dumb s@#$ all day. what we need is people who do the f@#%in dishes! Not talk about doing the dishes.
(dishes=work that sux)

tat you have never had a positive view (that I have seen) in your comic of gay culture lesbian culture is another thing, but gay men, and trans fem is not your political strong suit and much like you didn't know shit about women's plight a few years ago I don't think you know shit about trans and gay issues now. I ain't condemning here just calling it as I see it. and if all you rad fems can do is talk about is SWERF and TERF, please keep bitching on the interweb like a bunch of old hens ready for the chopping block. Just like the old hens before you were, when feminism was coming out of groups in the 60s. See how far it gets you.

hope all goes well for you all i'm out

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Jenny
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Re: We have our answer

Post by Jenny » Wed Aug 08, 2018 3:03 am

TTBomb wrote: Q: Are Transwomen women?
Yes.

I know, I just got here, nobody knows me, and who cares about my opinion, right? But I have some thoughts, and maybe someone will read my thoughts, and have thoughts of their own, and maybe we can turn down some of the acrimony and mudslinging here.

First of all, I, a Sapphic cis-woman (which is to say, a girl-type person who falls in love, and when I'm extremely lucky, in bed, with other girl-type persons) whole-heartedly believe that transwomen are women. Because I'm also a nurse, I know what transwomen go through to claim their truth.

The Benjamin standards, by which reputable physicians treat transgender patients, have a whole series of hoops through which one must jump. Months of talk therapy with a Licensed Independent Clinical Social Worker. Psychological tests which have to be reviewed with a second LICSW. Then, providing both of those gatekeepers agree, you can get an endocrinology recommendation. Plus, there's electrolysis. Do you have any idea how much that costs? Buying a whole new wardrobe? Another huge cost.

All so they can be discriminated against in public; so they can be murdered and cops won't bother to investigate; So EMTs and ED personnel can refuse them service and let them die without repercussions.

Can you imagine that anyone would do all that if they did't have to?

And if you think that cis-women lack privilege? Walk a mile in the shoes of someone who (however mistakenly) was classified as male and given that priviledge, and gave it up to be themselves.

So yeah. I acknowledge that transwomen are women. They don't need my belief; their own is harder than diamond.

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Sorantia
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Re: We have our answer

Post by Sorantia » Wed Aug 08, 2018 6:17 am

Jenny wrote:
TTBomb wrote: Q: Are Transwomen women?
Yes.

I know, I just got here, nobody knows me, and who cares about my opinion, right? But I have some thoughts, and maybe someone will read my thoughts, and have thoughts of their own, and maybe we can turn down some of the acrimony and mudslinging here.

First of all, I, a Sapphic cis-woman (which is to say, a girl-type person who falls in love, and when I'm extremely lucky, in bed, with other girl-type persons) whole-heartedly believe that transwomen are women. Because I'm also a nurse, I know what transwomen go through to claim their truth.

The Benjamin standards, by which reputable physicians treat transgender patients, have a whole series of hoops through which one must jump. Months of talk therapy with a Licensed Independent Clinical Social Worker. Psychological tests which have to be reviewed with a second LICSW. Then, providing both of those gatekeepers agree, you can get an endocrinology recommendation. Plus, there's electrolysis. Do you have any idea how much that costs? Buying a whole new wardrobe? Another huge cost.

All so they can be discriminated against in public; so they can be murdered and cops won't bother to investigate; So EMTs and ED personnel can refuse them service and let them die without repercussions.

Can you imagine that anyone would do all that if they did't have to?

And if you think that cis-women lack privilege? Walk a mile in the shoes of someone who (however mistakenly) was classified as male and given that priviledge, and gave it up to be themselves.

So yeah. I acknowledge that transwomen are women. They don't need my belief; their own is harder than diamond.
That is the best thing I've read here, and is exactly why I will go out of the way to support the transgender women, and see them as women.


I feel that they didn't one day wake up and decided to be a woman, it's something that they've carried with through the entire lives, the struggle of dealing with your personal identity, hell, imaging every day waking up and every time you look at the mirror, you dislike what you see because it's not who you are.


There is a massive stigma against them, not to mention the discrimination, the bullying, hatred, etc. They know it, and they went through it anyway.


All they want is to be seen as equal and to be accepted for who they are, and for that, I'll give them that, 100%.

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